# The Sunless Citadel: Continuing the Meta-Meta-Commentary tags: #thoughts #game/rpg/dnd  Okay, so we're back with [CF](https://x.com/ChubbyFunsterGC) analyzing classic **D&D** scenarios,[^1] which I continue to find fairly fascinating because we approach the idea of gameplay spaces in an entirely different way. The things that he notices, I would often gloss over, and the things that he glosses over, I just can't get past. In this case, we are surprisingly *together* on the most important aspect of this particular dungeon, that it has two factions which are actively at war with one another, and they have a handful of traps which are in reasonable places if they were cutting off access to their space by the other faction. The kobolds and the goblins going at each other in this dungeon is great. Likewise, we're of the same mind in thinking that ancient ruins created by some group for a purpose, which have then been abandoned and then repopulated by someone else, is also pretty awesome. Hooray! This is an ancient dragon-cult worship site! Unfortunately for the author of [*The Sunless Citadel*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sunless_Citadel),[^2] I have a particular question that comes to mind every time I look at these things. If you've been following [my Twitter](https://x.com/squidlord), you know what comes next: *"But why?"* Now I realize that asking "but why" when a legitimate answer in the setting is "a wizard did it" is sometimes counterproductive. Let's be honest, "but why" is one of the most important questions that you can ask when it comes to constructing an environment for players to interact with, whether it be the crunchiest of gamist-forward board games or the most fiction-forward narrativist RPG. If you can answer why, then you can give good reason for characters to be motivated, for players to care what's going on, and for the overall experience to shake out in a way that everybody will like. So let's look at the actual map that we've got going on here with the *Sunless Citadel*. CF is very clear and direct when he starts talking about the physical topology of the maps, and he immediately recognized that this is essentially a three-vector map with an isolated lower vector, a center vector which houses the kobolds, and an upper vector which houses the goblins, with one narrow corridor connecting the middle and upper vectors. I love multi-faction situations. I love cool bits. Okay. Essentially, you've got three narratively isolated structures here and only one order in which it makes sense to do them. You can't get the key to go to the lower vector until you've dealt with the kobolds one way or another. You can't actually negotiate with the goblins, according to the scenario, because it has a DC of 30. There is a clear and intentional order for the players to go through. But why? There's no way for the players to actually know this from any of the environmental clues. Structurally, they come down into the map at what is a central hub room and are literally forced into the kobolds. What looks like a three-vector topology is really a very linear fictional narrative. You're pushed into contact with the kobolds first. They're the ones that are most likely to actually talk to you. They give you a sob story about a kidnapped juvenile dragon. You can then proceed into the northern vector, which does contain goblins and at least one decent watchpoint and quite a lot of traps, many of which have no telegraph at all, or any clear way for the PCs to avoid them. You're effectively pushed into wiping out the goblins, even though the goblins themselves, in their large numbers, are often directed by the mechanics to do subdual damage rather than lethal. The players are effectively on a linear fetch quest dressed up as a three-lane map. First, the players find out about the baby dragon from the kobolds. Then free the baby dragon from the goblins and take it back to the kobolds. Get the key and explore the southern spur, which has a few threats in it, none of which have an apparent source of food, water, or access to the outside world. There's so much "but why" going on here. There are two ways in and out of this floor of the dungeon, one of which is the entrance that the PCs came through at the bottom of a ravine at the bottom of a long flight of stairs several miles from the nearest town that is forced through the kobold territory. The other is out the backside of the kobold territory into the Underdark. Note that nothing in that direction is actually fleshed out within the module itself. Also note that neither of these things is connected to the Goblin area, which has significantly larger numbers of foes who are individually more powerful and probably need both more food and water. How do the goblins get in and out? How did they get in in the first place? Nothing suggests how that happened or continues to happen. Where do they get food? No idea. Where do they prepare their food or have a latrine? No idea. How did they get the captives which they have in room 34? Not a clue. But why? At least the kobolds have a water mephit in, ironically, a water closet in room 14 on their spur. Are there any traps on the goblin side of the passage that would lead to access to fresh water from the water mephit? Not a one. Do the kobolds have any traps in room 25 or 26, or the corridor to room 28, which would be a reasonable place for traps to be put to keep goblins out of their area? Or in fact, the long winding corridor from 25 to 15? Not a one. I don't know why you'd ask. But these criticisms are kind of stepping on the toes of CF and more his bailiwick. He was a bit more enthusiastic about the layout than I was. My problem is looking at this space and wondering what in the name of fuck were the original dragon cultists who created this architecture a millennia ago actually doing? The space doesn't make sense for actual usage. Was it intended that the priests and priestesses would live in nearby homes outside of the temple complex itself and come in to worship every day? Certainly, that would accord with ancient worship practices we're aware of. No clue. Why is this thing sunk into the ground? You would think there would be a fairly critical amount of information about how and why that happened historically within the context of the building. Nope, not a clue, and nobody's curious about it either. There's a room with a big key in the middle of a dragon's head open. Why? What's the purpose? Is the big pit at the far end of room ten along the southern spur of some original ritual purpose? Why is there a secret passage that connects to it at the bottom? Were priests falling into this thing all the time, or was it a later addition? Don't know. Don't care. Like many **D&D** modules, the actual context doesn't make any sense. There are tons of high-difficulty skill checks. Sure, those are everywhere. But the writer couldn't bother to come up with reasons for the architecture to be like it is. Buildings aren't built like this—not even after they've fallen to ruin and been partially rebuilt several times. Factions which are in conflict with each other within 100 feet of corridors and rooms and have plenty of traps in their main space don't leave the main avenues of approach untrapped, and they don't trap avenues that they actually have to use on a regular basis to get food and water. In fact, looking at this map with the eye of a strategist, if I were the kobolds, since I have access to the outside through the door and the goblins don't, I'm just going to wall up the entrance to the northeast in room 15 and starve the goblins to death. In fact, if I reinforce that door in 15 and the passage in 24, or even collapse them, I never have to worry about the goblins at all, ever again. They starve and maybe even suffocate to death. It's hard to tell. You see what I mean when I criticize these things from the aspect of, "but why?" None of the reasons make sense. None of the situation setups make sense. At least some of the traps in this map make sense. I'll give them that. Two factions going at each other? Awesome stuff. But why isn't there an attack underway at any point while the PCs are here? That would be a hell of a thing to drop into, right? Noisy, bloody, violent, and distracting. Is there a way to set that up for the PCs? No, not really. They pretty much have to go through the kobold area and then deal with the goblins, and then get the key from the kobolds to go to the southern spur, even though, other than a really cool door, there's no reason for them to be motivated to do so. From the perspective of a good party: What's the point of going down here? As the audience, we know that there really isn't that much treasure in here. It's a long way from anywhere. It's hard to get to. There's nothing that the protagonists really need from this place. Nothing's set up for them to really want. Maybe someone tells them about some captured gnomes, if we're lucky. However, flip this on its head. Imagine you are playing an evil character. You come in, you find a bunch of kobolds who want something, and they seem to be pretty weak in general. In fact, weak enough that a first and second level party can take them out entirely if need be. There are some goblins to the north that are a problem for the kobolds. You could direct the kobolds to wall up the access points and starve out the goblins. Solidify your control over the kobold leader. In the meantime, get the key and use the kobolds as disposable scout units for the southern spur. Once you don't hear any more scrabbling around, from the goblin area, take down the defensive walls and stroll in, flanked by your goblin henchmen. Collect up all the goodies, such as there are. Point and laugh at the corpses of the kidnapped gnomes, and then consider what you're going to do with your just barely enough money to buy a chainmail shirt and your new subjugated tribe of kobolds. From an evil point of view, this place is a gold mine! If you know about the drow in the Underdark, even better—you've got a built-in conduit to get in touch with them. If you don't, you've just got another entrance to collapse or wall up. That goes with the territory. Speaking of territory, you now have a very poorly laid out but interestingly architecturally appointed ancient temple of dragon worshippers to use as your new headquarters, which is in a well-concealed area that's difficult to get into and which everyone knows to be dangerous to go near. Oh yes, and you have a baby dragon to bring up and train.[^3] Did you want your players to play evil characters? Because this is how you get your players to play evil characters. You make it only profitable to be evil. That's what we have here—a situation which is prime to be exploited by characters of dubious moral quality, which, from my perspective, is awesome, but that's definitely not how the designer intended it to be played. That's a real problem. Not a problem for me, because I'm perfectly happy to be the Lawful Evil guy in the largely good party, who they keep around for just such circumstances. But it's a real problem for people who tell others on a regular basis that **D&D** is all about the heroism. Clearly, it's not. It's all about the opportunism and turning every situation to your advantage, especially at lower levels, because lethality is fairly significant. Would running this with any other system make a difference? No. The architecture would still make absolutely no sense. The faction differentiation would be pretty cool, but their fighting would make no difference, and the necessity for opportunism would be as significant. The problem is the philosophy of design and either the inability to or preference not to understand the fictive implications of what's on the page. In short, we've got bad architecture. No answers to "but why," and a narrative setup which is only going to reward the fully opportunistic. I really would kind of enjoy taking a fully evil party into this dungeon with them knowing that they're the evil folks, but I'd probably use **[[Tiny Dungeon]]** to do it if I wanted to keep to a classical fantasy style system at all.[^4] [^1]: See my bit on [[Dungeon Remanifest - The Sunless Fane|the rewrite of the Sunless Fane]] for more information. [^2]: Not that Bruce Cordell needs *my* endorsement. The man has his own line of classic **D&D** scenarios, but it certainly couldn't hurt, right? [^3]: I repeat, *a baby dragon*. The long-term implications of a group of kobolds with a baby dragon to rear is left as an exercise for the reader, and probably a follow-up scenario called *Kill All the Kobolds With Their Marauding Dragon.* [^4]: I'm willing to accept that sometimes you really want the crunch of a classic old-school map design. It's a bit retro for me, but if you're going to do it, at least use a system that doesn't get in your way.