# Reddit: Heroic Fantasy Without Levels (a response) tags: #thoughts #game/rpg/wushu #game/rpg/ironsworn #game/rpg/starforged #game/rpg/wicked-ones #game/rpg/blades-in-the-dark #game/rpg/dungeons-and-dragons #references/reddit > [!quote] > > Most of the time, when I am looking for some good example games about high fantasy or heroic fantasy, It is very tightly woven into the idea of levels. > > The only three TTRPGs that come to mind, which are not universal systems: > > Dragonbane, but Dragonbane shares arguably more similarities with OSR in the terms of feel. > > Mythras/ Classic fantasy - I mean this is an option, but I enjoy more Mythras as is, because Classic Fantasy can feel a little bolted on rather than its own thing. > > Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4th edition - I mean its not really but I just added it here for the sake of naming at least something. > > What games I am forgetting/ missing? > > -- https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/18v905d/high_fantasy_games_that_are_levelless/ All right, let's go digging for some things which don't have **D&D** as an immediate genetic ancestor, which is basically what you're asking for when you say "high or heroic fantasy without levels." After all, there is a vast and varied world of fantasy out there which has very little to do with D&D in terms of mechanics. Thank Hades for that simple fact. Let's start at one of my favorite places: **[Wushu](https://danielbayn.com/wushu/)**. It's an extremely mechanics-light game which puts narrative first and foremost in a very literal way. Player characters can do anything that is described – the mechanics resolve not whether they can do it but rather whether doing so has an effect. This makes a big difference to the game. Want high fantasy where a PC wizard throws lightning bolts with a laugh and warrior-priests snap necks while calling down the holy blessings of their god – in the first session? Wushu is that game. Shockingly enough, it's free. Go and sin no more. --- Maybe you want something that's not quite that far out there in the heroic fantasy realm. Fair enough. **[Ironsworn](https://www.ironswornrpg.com)** might be exactly what you're looking for… Well, not exactly. By default, Ironsworn is particularly gritty, grimy, and pretty low fantasy, even with all the dials turned up in Session 0 when you create the world. But you are not the first to tread this land. There is a time of aftermarket expansion which exists because the creator of Ironsworn essentially made the core mechanics open source. You want [**Ars Magica**-style magic in Ironsworn](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/368750/Arcanum-High-Magic-for-Ironsworn)? That supplement exists. [You want long-term crafting with projects that take multiple sessions and require multiple quests?](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/351813/Ironsmith) That's out there. You want the core book for free? It's on the website. If it appeals to you, I definitely suggest picking up the **[Ironsworn: Delve](https://www.ironswornrpg.com/product-ironsworn-delve)** book for more detailed mechanics on dungeon diving or just going whole hog and picking up the successor book **[Starforged](https://www.ironswornrpg.com/product-ironsworn-starforged)** which has quite a bit more mechanically integrated into a single book and while it's science fiction – we all know that's functionally identical to sufficiently advanced magic. This has been one of my biggest finds of the last couple years and I'm quite pleased about it. --- Okay – high fantasy. You want high fantasy? Let's bust out **[Wicked Ones](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/338480/Wicked-Ones-Deluxe-Edition)**. That's probably not the high fantasy were thinking of. You were thinking of being mighty heroes, powerful lords of the light, insightful wizards, and here I come putting a game where you play the inhabitants of a dungeon, the bad guys, the raiders, the scum, in front of you. That is all true! Wicked Ones is about playing – well – the wicked ones, the guys that do the dirty work, whether they be kobold commanders, skeletal sorcerers, or rat kings. It's a great game. It's based on **[Blades in the Dark](https://evilhat.com/product/blades-in-the-dark/)** mechanically, which you may have heard of in other contexts as a great high/low fantasy RPG in its own right. Let's say that's not hard-core enough for you. Let's say you need the next level of power up, something truly world-scouring. You want players running the biggest movers and shakers of terror in your world. Their goal is nothing less than tearing down all that exists! Pick up the **[Wicked Ones: Undead Awakening](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/377915/Wicked-Ones-Undead-Awakening)** expansion because it does exactly that. You want high fantasy? It's hard to be higher fantasy than being the Master Necromancer about to swarm the last bastion of humanity with an endless wave of undead flesh. --- There you go, a swath of high fantasy/heroic fantasy or adjacent games, reasons they are there, and links to get them. This is a good day.